WCW La, Round 1, Match 7: #11 Jeff Jarrett vs. #54 El Canek

It's a shame that Jake ruined what was a very strong post by Uncle Sam with the tired old "if you agree with IC25's facts then you're just kissing his ass" argument.

Now I'm going to find it hard to put my war face on. Damn it, I'll try my best.

1. The regional argument. Sam mentions that, because Jeff Jarrett won titles in the real WCW, that he should go over in the WCW region. That's gotta be the most ridiculous thing I've heard since somebody told me to vote for Brutus Beefcake.

Now you're not pretending that Jake's post didn't exist at all. Personally, I've never entirely bought into the argument. However, I know others do. There is some merit to it.

Really, it depends on your interpretation of the rules. Well, of wrestling even. If you think being in a certain place, with a certain type of atmosphere, with certain fans or a certain type of... colour theme makes a difference then, well, it makes a difference here. I know that people have and will bring it up in relation to Hogan, Goldberg and Sting.

"So and so rarely lost here. Do you really think so and so will lose to him here?"

2. The argument that UWA is "obscure." Sure, to people who are so ethnocentric that they refuse to leave their force-fed comfort zone and see that great promotions exist outside of the US and Canada.

Force-fed is a bit harsh. Fact of the matter is, a lot of people will vote for El Canek without knowing who he is or even because of it.

"I don't know who he is, but shit, these guys seem to like him and I never cared much for Jarrett."

Sly brought it up in the women's tournament - God rest its soul - when Trish Stratus faced... some Japanese women. People were only voting for "some Japanese women" because Echelon was telling them to, not because they actually knew anything about her.

The idea that, if a wrestler wasn't a high paid commodity in either WWF/E, WCW, NWA, AWA, ECW, TNA, or ROH is ridiculous and SO arrogant.

To be fair, I'll gladly put the NWA, AWA, ROH and even ECW in the same boat.

Hell, Jake even mentions that my Vader devotion is "excusable," though most of my arguments for him come from his work in Japan and Mexico!

Video evidence, my friend. We were all impressed by those videos of Vader kicking the shit out of people.

If you just take some time to learn about the Lucha promotions, you'll gain a new respect for El Canek's work, and what he meant to pro wrestling internationally.

Hmm, maybe what his work meant. Definitely not his actual work. I still fail to see what was so special about him. The only reason I can see why Mexican fans would like him, a cumbersome little guy, is for the same reason we like agile big guys. And in Japan they just like big American guys. It's something different. So why not?

So being a 15-time UWA Champion in Mexico is the US equivalent of being a 15-time WCW Champion.

I sincerely doubt that. I also still don't think the "title vs. title" argument holds any water. Actually looking at how the wrestlers compare in the ring, that's how this should be done. I look forward to replying to Tastycles post in the next... hour or so. How much more can there be?

3. The argument that booking holds no weight in a kayfabe tournament.

You're not going to change my mind on this one.

With that, I am merely pointing out that Jeff Jarrett lacked the overall ability to win without significant help.

From what - a pen? Suggesting to creative that he'd like some favourable booking his way. I don't even think him booking himself to titles means much; he was actually without exception the best option for that belt. Better than Rhino, better than Samoa Joe, better than Raven, AJ Styles or even Sting.

And the Triple H parallel is garbage.

I think it's certainly more accurate than comparing the careers of one wrestler in America and one wrestler in Mexico, from completely different eras.

Now for some direct responses to Sam...

Oh Christ. I'll try to get to Tastycles post some time tomorrow.

I never claimed he was the fastest cruiserweight ever.

You did mention the words "agile" and "quick" (or maybe it was "fast" - it had the same effect).

The reason he is so great stems from how well-rounded he was.

He was strong. However, because his speed didn't compensate for his size, that's more of a disadvantage than anything.

He was possibly the strongest cruiserweight ever.

Most definitely. I've certainly seen little competition outside of AJ Styles (what? He power-bombed Abyss!). At least, he was good at slamming big guys. He's certainly no John Cena or Brock Lesnar. From what I've seen, his opponents definitely gave him a little assistance in making him look strong. I mean being stupid by letting their momentum carry them, before you argue kayfabe.

Does Taz count as a cruiserweight? He was probably shorter.

But there were heavyweights stronger than him. But the rub is that none of the heavyweights who were stronger than El Canek were also as quick and agile as he was.

They must have been some damn slow heavyweights. Yokozuna - or whatever he was called at the time - seemed be as quick. His sense of timing was just shit.

That's because he's the only one who can write the storyline, Sammy.

Kayfabe. Not to mention, I thought it was Vince Russo who wrote TNA in its entirety. Has the internets lied to me!?

Again, I am not discrediting Jarrett as a talented mid-card performer.

Are you calling Kurt Angle midcard?

El Canek is. AND he has boxing and MMA success.

Did he incorporate MMA into his style? And I'm talking Samoa Joe style, not just Undertaker/keep-your-hands-up style.

He was better-than-average, I'll never deny that.

Jarrett was a superb heel and a great all-around wrestler. He was just under appreciated.

Well, maybe this will help:

That was the bit where you posted about large crowds for if/when you reply. And, like Tastycles has pointed out, I think "foreign superstars" are the key words.

I'd also like to point out:

I'm absolutely certain that's misleading. The wins over those guys, that is. You have to take into consideration the point of the careers those guys were in. The Yokozuna win has already been discredited.

The choice is simple.

Yeah, it's El Canek or Jeff Jarrett. Who couldn't get their head around that system?

El Canek over Jarrett.

Jarrett over El Canek.

Folks, don't allow people like Sam and Shocky to blind you with ethnocentrism,

Don't allow people like IC and, um, Tastycles to blind you with anti-ethnocentrism - i.e. making you believe someone was good and you automatically believing them because they're not from round here and you've seen hardly any of their matches.

or discount an entire country's wrestling lineage.

SlyFox would do it. Why wouldn't you?

The facts are irrefutable,

There's more to life than facts, says the Atheist. Particularly when you bend the facts. You know Jarrett's facts. You should rightly be impressed. IC has the great position of being able to fill in the blanks as he pleases.

and if you need me to re-post them or highlight them, just look to my previous post:

Very impressive. Does it relate to the match or the tournament? I'd argue not.

What you should do is this. Watch an El Canek match. If you believe the man in that match (El Canek, not his opponent) could beat Jeff Jarrett with a regional advantage that I assure you, you should take into account, then vote for him.

I think Canek should win here,

Boo.

but not for the reasons that IC is saying.

Yay, I guess. Anything that isn't against Jarrett, I'll use for ammunition.

First and foremost, you cannot use the booking argument against Jeff Jarrett, because Canek booked his own matches at UWA.

Holy shit. Thanks for that one. The dirty, cheating so-and-so.

Secondly, UWA was the number two promotion to EMLL and then the number three behind AAA and CMLL.

Did EMLL disappear? If I've got my maths right, that makes it number four.

The reason it failed in part was because nobody wanted to see Canek versus the foreingers anymore.

This is some good ammo. Armor-piercing, if you will. Or even if you won't.

Canek should win for a number of reasons:

Oh, so now you're on his side. I see how it is.

1. Canek and Jeff Jarrett are about the same size. Canek is dogshit against people that are significantly smaller than him, but Jarrett isn't.

He's slightly lighter than El Canek - in 2009 shape. Jarrett is hardly that trim either.

Jarrett is weaker than Canek, and isn't exactly renown for his pace either.

1) I reckon if his opponents gave him a run-up and wobbled around conveniently, Jarrett could throw them around just as easily.

2) From what I've seen, Jarrett is quicker than El Canek. So, not renowned for his pace, but still faster.

Jarrett is pretty much an all rounder, whereas Canek has an obvious attribute: his strength.

Also, his lack of speed and agility. Don't forget that.

There is nothing Jarrett has that would subdue Canek,

1) A plywood guitar? What? It lays everyone out. DQ is on? Yeah, it's usually on when Jarrett uses it to win.

2) Figure four. Unless El Canek's legs turn out to be made of steel.

3) The Stroke. It's a finisher. It finishes people. It can damn sure be used on El Canek. Christ knows he won't be able to roll through, the fat bastard.

so Canek would outmuscle him to victory.

Outmuscle him?

2. Jeff Jarrett's title wins shouldn't be compared to Canek's title wins, but his lucha de apuestas record.

They really shouldn't be compared to anything. Even CCS recognises that title reigns can't be compared. Edge's wins have been absolute shite (from a kayfabe point of view). I bet he gets far though.

3. Canek would have the crowd on his side- The Southern Californian crowds get behind Mexican wrestlers, and I see no reason why they wouldn't here. Canek was always good at working a crowd, and using the momentum to his advantage, and he'd do that here.

Great. Jarrett's a natural heel. He feeds off the crowd's hate. The more El Canek gets them onside, the more effective Jarrett is.

4. Canek's finisher is actually good, he gorilla presses them into a backbreaker. The move is rarely countered, because once lifted above his head, there is nothing they can do.

Except roll off.

Jarrett 's finisher is the Stroke, something that can easily be powered out of, and Canek has the advantage here.

The Stroke is always reversed. But it's also always inevitably hit.

5. And I hate this argument, but it works on some people. Ignoring the big named foreign people, Canek has beaten all of the Mexican wrestlers that have beaten Jarrett when he competed in AAA.

Irrelevant. This is Jarrett in his prime. Jarrett Prime, if you will.

As I said, I hate chains of victory

Then why are you bringing it up?

By no means is Canek as good as IC will have you believe, but I do think that in a one on one match in Los Angeles, Canek would pick up the victory.

In a one-on-one match in WCW, Jarrett would win. El Canek has one slim advantage - strength. It's hardly as if Jarrett has never faced anyone stronger than himself.